This is a transcript of Live the 8Wise™ Way Podcast.
Are You Feeling S.A.D (Seasonal Affective Disorder)?
Welcome everybody, thank you for listening in. You are listening in to the Live The 8WiseTM Way Podcast with me, Kim Rutherford. Psychotherapist, author and creator of 8WiseTM and also podcast host right here, right now in front of you. If this is your first time joining me, thank you very much, it’s great to have you with us. If you love what you hear, please hit that like button, share, subscribe, do all the stuff you’re supposed to do if you don’t mind, and let’s help get this message out there to as many people who might be experiencing some mental health struggles right now. If you’ve never listened to this podcast before, then why not go back and start at the beginning and really get a good, thorough understanding of what 8WiseTM is, how 8WiseTM can help you with your psychological wellbeing, how it can help you with your mental health recovery, and ultimately how it can help you just have a better quality of life in whatever way you choose to live your life. So go back to the beginning and let me know what you think.
Today’s episode is always… well, we are talking about S.A.D, and I don’t mean sadness, I mean are you feeling S.A.D with regards to S.A.D Seasonal Affective Disorder? It’s that time of year I’m afraid, Autumn time, it’s getting darker, its getting colder, things are changing for us and Seasonal Affective Disorder, which is commonly known as S.A.D, actually affects up to 3 in 100 people in the UK alone. So, in my small little country, that’s quite a lot of people who are suffering from S.A.D and as we tend to have the cold, the wet, the grey, the darkness, that’s a lot of people struggling right now and probably quite a few people who started to notice a change in their mood and a change in their behaviour. So, I thought it made sense really just to put some information out there, help you understand what you’re experiencing, why you might be experiencing it, and give you a little bit of information with regards to how you can cope with it but, more importantly, what 8WiseTM Ways can you put in place to help manage and protect yourself from the longer term effects of S.A.D as well.
So, we’ve got to start right at the basics when it comes to S.A.D and the reality of it is it’s a subtype of depression. For those of you who’ve never thought of yourself as experiencing depression, yet every single Winter you go through this phase, you go through this process, then it’s to let you know that it is a subtype of depression and depression is characterized by mood changes. And that’s all it is, just think of it as mood changes, don’t get scared by the word, don’t get scared of what the connotations of the word depression might mean. Just look at it as S.A.D is a subtype of depression and depression is characterized by mood changes and specifically when it comes to S.A.D, the mood changes happen specifically with regards to the change in seasons.
Now, like an awful lot of these things, it’s more common in women than in men and, as a disorder, it actually usually takes place or starts around the age of 20. Again, like a lot of these types of things, it can run in families, so it can be hereditary as well so if you’ve got a parent who suffered with S.A.D then it’s very possible that you also suffer with S.A.D as well.
Now the symptoms and the behaviours, they’re very specific to certain seasons, so we see it coming on in the Autumn, but it more traditionally comes into full flow in the Winter months. You might then see that in Summer things change for you as well. Some people call it the Winter blues, some people call it Winter depression, but ultimately, S.A.D comes into full fruition in the Winter months.
So, when we hit Autumn, and specifically in the UK and those other countries that tend to see a real dramatic change, as the Autumn months come in and those colder breezes, those colder winds come in, we can start to see people, or in yourself, you might see those mood changes starting to come back in.
With regards to who’s at risk, well, anybody to be perfectly honest, absolutely anybody, just like any other mental health issue, anybody is susceptible to it. Yes, you might be more susceptible if it’s in your family, but even if it’s not in your family, it is very, very possible for you to experience this as well. Daylight itself plays a direct role in this. So, it is about making sure that you still get good access to as much of the vitamin D and getting outside in what little sunshine you might still have. This is because your brain is wired to associate a lack of daylight with sleeping. What then happens is it produces melatonin which can induce your depression symptoms so it is really important that if you know that you suffer with S.A.D, that Seasonal Affective Disorder, that you are making an effort to get back out there and spend a little bit of time outdoors every day in the sunshine. For those of you who work at home or a hybrid working, I appreciate this can be a little bit harder because we can get stuck to our desk thinking ‘I need to be in at my desk for all of those times that I’m working’. When we go to work and do the commute, we actually get a little bit of sunlight, we get a little bit of fresh air, we get out there a bit more. So, if you are working at home and you find that you are stuck in that spare room or in your office or wherever your desk might be, put it down, get outside, try and get outside and get some fresh air. Get some daylight on your skin and start to feel some of the benefits and rewards with that, with regards to actually helping your brain get through this season.
What basically happens to us is fewer hours of sunlight can disrupt your natural sleep and wake cycle, which then can disrupt your feelings of fatigue and low energy and that lack of sunlight may also affect the brain’s production of serotonin, and that’s the chemical that helps you regulate your mood. So that sunlight, that sun time that you have, that getting out in the fresh air is really, really, really crucial if you want to help yourself manage your Seasonal Affective Disorder.
Another thing you need to think about is stress. Stress is a gateway to so many things, and you’re going to hear me say this so many times, but stress really is a gateway to so many things and a lack of sunlight can also link to stress on the brain. And then any form of stress can change the body’s function and cause the stress on the body, which can then lead to more issues with regards to those low moods and depression so, stress can make your symptoms of S.A.D become worse. So, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, you need to find ways to reduce your stress in your life in general, and that will help you manage S.A.D a bit better. So that’s those usual things of exercise, relaxation techniques, counselling, of course can help as well if you need to talk through problems or talk through issues that might be causing everything.
Now I do experience S.A.D every year. I can feel it creeping in right now as we speak and I’m a big fan of light therapy and one of the easiest ways that I’ve found to manage my S.A.D is to have a very specific… mine is a light alarm clock where I can set the alarm clock every day and, what I call, the dawn light comes on half an hour before my alarm clock comes on. This helps me in two ways. It means that I start to wake up naturally with sunlight, which is what I do through the Summer months, it also means that I’m not in that shock factor when my alarm goes off in the morning of waking up in pure darkness. What happens is because my body starts to wake up naturally as that dawn light comes on, it gives me half an hour to start waking up naturally so when my alarm goes off, it’s almost like a final reminder. Because I also put that as part of a light box, it means that I’m right in front of my light box for that half an hour before I even properly wake up and so I can sit there and that light box for 30 minutes is really, really good. It mimics that natural sunlight and it helps improve my mood immediately as I start awakening during the day.
In the evening, I can do the same thing. What I’ve also bought myself is an infuser that has a light box attached to it. So, what I do in the Winter months, I try to sit there in front of my diffuser with all these lovely scents that make me feel great, and I have that light box as well and I tend to have that on before I plan to relax and go to bed so I’m kind of book ending my day with trying to start my day with a higher mood and a good mood, and also trying to end my day as well. So light therapy works really, really well for me. Exposing myself to more light as much as I can, especially at the beginning of the day and the end of the day, and I’m not perfect at getting out every single day into the daylight either, so I have to make an effort to do that. I have to plan ahead when it comes to doing that as well, which means that I need to always make sure I’m putting time in my diary, which I’m not great at getting out in the day, but I also tend to find that this is a really great time of the year to get myself a little bit of Winter sun. So, where everybody else tends to be their Summer is coming to an end and they’re all getting ready to go back to school, back to work and all that kind of stuff, I find this actually a really good time as soon as those creepy Winter months, those darker months, when Autumn starts to really creep in, that’s when I head out and get some sun so usually late September, early October, or my husband’s birthday is late October, so if he’s lucky, we’ll go away for him. I try to get some Winter sun planned in for then as well. In fact, I’ve literally just come back from France, which was lovely. I had a lovely time and I’ve already booked my next year’s break and I’ll be heading into Mexico around about October next year to get my Winter sun then as well, to help me plan ahead to try and combat that S.A.D coming in and kicking my butt, as it has done in many previous years before.
Now, obviously I am a therapist and as a therapist I’m always going to be recommending therapy because like I said S.A.D is a form of depression and sometimes you just need to talk through some of the things that might also be triggering you. And so many people benefit from attending proper therapy sessions, whether that be on Zoom, whether that be on Teams, whether that be online in any format or even face to face, if you’re lucky enough to still be able to do that. If you find that you’re trying other things and you’re trying these at home processes of light boxes and exercising more and it’s just not working for you, then maybe going and getting some therapy, getting some counselling, can help you as well because what that counselling can do, it can help you manage your stress which, as we know, is a trigger point for so many things. It can help you understand your thoughts and feelings, help you develop those coping mechanisms, and really just help you feel like you’re back in control of those low moods. And sometimes having a low mood from time to time is really normal and we all experiencing them from time to time. We all experience something that doesn’t make us feel great. So, learning to feel in control, learning to know how to cope, is a really good way. It’s a really good set of tools for the rest of your life, and you can get that from your therapist. So, it’s not a bad thing to do if you’ve never tried it before.
Other things that you can do from home though is manage your sugar cravings. Are you that person that as soon as it gets a little bit cold outside, it’s all about the comfort food, it’s all about the comfort eating, it’s all about finding ways to make yourself feel better, so you start craving certain things. Sugar becomes one of the big things that we crave, and then that can lead to actually a lot of weight gain. And that’s absolutely fine. There’s nothing wrong in weight gain. It’s very normal to lose weight, and gain weight, and maintain weight and do it all over again. That’s all very normal. But for some people, that can actually be very problematic, and it can be triggering for them. If you’ve ever wondered hy you might find that in the Winter months, you start putting on a pound or two extra, that’s absolutely fine. Just be aware that sometimes when you experience any form of low mood, especially with S.A.D, it can be associated with weight gain because the lack of serotonin can make you crave sugary foods because we can get serotonin from sugar, sadly. So, it can make you crave those sugary foods. You might find that you are craving those comfort foods because your serotonin levels have decreased as we’ve gone into those darker months and they’re absolutely fine. Have your sweet treats, do it, enjoy yourself. Just do it in moderation. Eat your healthy snacks, get your fruits and vegetables in, and you should be fine with regards to those cravings.
Now ultimately, obviously S.A.D is part of depression and depression isn’t always just seasonal. You can get it any time of the year ultimately. And S.A.D can be triggered dramatically in the Winter, but it can also be seen at other times of the year as well. So don’t think I only can have it in the Winter months, it seasonal. Certain people are affected by different seasons for different reasons and if that’s you, it’s perfectly normal as well but the key thing really is with S.A.D, is if you need to get treatment for it, absolutely get treatment for it and understand the signs, understand yourself well enough to know when it’s coming back.
Now, everything that I say is always going to be linking back into 8WiseTM and it’s all about can you use this 8WiseTM model to help you to either prevent S.A.D from coming on board or, if you do experience it, to help you recover from those signs and symptoms that you are experiencing and it always starts with the same part really, and starting right at the beginning. I’m a firm believer that you’ve got to start at the beginning of every process to give yourself the best shot and the beginning of the process for S.A.D and understanding S.A.D is being able to identify how you feel. It’s about emotional regulation, it’s about checking in with yourself and going ‘how am I feeling right now, yeah it is a bit cold outside and, you know, I might not want to put the heating on at the moment, so it’s a little bit cold inside as well. It is a bit darker at night and I kind of miss that sunshine walk I used to do in the evenings, or I’m waking up in the morning, it’s still dark and I always want to hit the snooze button and head straight back under that duvet again, and it’s not making me feel great’.
So, it’s about starting with really stopping, self-reflection and having a good, thorough understanding of how you feel right now. Stop and then think about it. ‘How am I feeling right now Summer is over?’ Is it creeping in, is that lethargy creeping in, is that low mood creeping in. And if it is, then here are my 8WiseTM ways to helping you protect yourself or manage your Seasonal Affective Disorder during this Winter.
Number one, I’ve mentioned it already. My number one tip, get your dose of daylight. Get out there. As the days are getting shorter, it feels like you are heading… it almost feels like you only live in work, it feels like you wake up in darkness, you go to work, and you come home in darkness and that itself can take a major toll on our mental health. So you’ve got to try and find that time to get some sunlight in. Aim for a minimum of 20 minutes every day, get out there at lunchtime, stop sitting at your desk eating a half-eaten sandwich for the 10 minutes that you’ve got spare in between your meetings. You know who you are if you are doing this and start thinking that ‘If I look after myself during this lunch break, I’ll be better at the work I do this afternoon anyway, and I’ll be healthier and happier in life in general’.
My recommendation to you is, number one 8WiseTM Way, get your dose of sunlight, plan it into your diary every day this week, a minimum, and I mean that a bare minimum, 20-minute walk at lunchtime in daylight and yes, I know it’s cold, and yes, I know it can be raining. That’s why umbrellas were invented. The daylight is still there when it’s raining, the daylight is still there when it’s cloudy, the daylight is still there when it’s cold and you, my friend, as a human, need that daylight. So, 20 minutes a day. That’s my number one 8WiseTM Way for dealing with S.A.D. Get out there in the daylight.
My second 8WiseTM Way is exercise regularly because the physical activity is tried, it’s tested. We know it helps decrease symptoms of depression and anxiety and it feels really good to release those endorphins, which makes it an excellent stress buster. And, as I’ve said, stress is a gateway to many mental health issues so if you can try and build in some exercise every single day, 30 minutes is a good starting point, do it at the beginning of the day if you can, just to boost you up. Do it by walking. Use your 20 minute, 30 minutes at lunchtime to get both daylight and some exercise as well. But definitely, definitely, definitely do some exercise every day and, like I said, you get bonus points if you can exercise outdoors as well and hit that sunlight and that exercise tick box at the same time.
Now, 8WiseTM Way number three is work in natural light and I appreciate this isn’t always easy if you don’t have full control over your surroundings, but if you can, try and position your desk near to the window and expose yourself to as much sunlight as you possibly can. So, this isn’t a way of you saying ‘Well, I’m not going to go out and do my lunchtime walk then’. No, still do your lunchtime walk, we’ll get as much exposure as we can but if you’ve got to sit for 8, 9, 10, 11 hours at a desk all day, or be in an environment where you’re indoors all the time, try and be near a window as much as you can to try and access as much of that natural light as you possibly can.
Now, 8WiseTM Way number four. It was always going to come in eventually, eat a healthy and balanced diet and this is because, it’s like what I said to you earlier, when we start to have a depletion in our serotonin levels, our brain starts to crave things we know it will increase our serotonin levels. So, it’s very common for this time of year for us to start going for that comfort food, that junk food, and those foods that are actually going to make our moods a lot worse. So 8WiseTM Way number four is eat a healthy and balanced diet, so don’t say no to the pizzas and all of those amazing foods, just make sure you’re getting your greens in with them. Make sure you get your greens in, your pulses in, your beans in, your fruits in and all your good veggies. You don’t have to say anything’s bad. There is no such thing as a bad food. There are just some foods that have a better impact on us than others and so to balance out those ones that might not impact us as well as another one, pair it up with one that does, and then what you do is reduce the negative effect of that particular food on your brain and on your mood. So, get out there and eat a healthy and balanced diet. Get your greens in, get your veggies in, get your beans, your pulses and your fruits in too, along with any of those comfort foods you want to have along the way too.
Now I’m a big fan of this time of year as well, which might sound crazy for someone who does experience Seasonal Affective Disorder but I am. This is my favourite season by far. I love the colours of Autumn. I love the smell of Autumn. I know that’s weird, but I do. I love the crispness in the air in the Autumn, you get this amazing blue sky and this amazing sunshine in Autumn. In fact, when I got married, I chose to have an Autumn wedding as well, and I was so lucky to have blue sky, sunshine, freezing cold but these gorgeous orange leaves around me as well, I was so happy with those photographs. So, it’s very easy to get into this stage where especially if we suffer from depression at this time of year to fear it so, the key is, don’t fear it. Find the beauty in the change of the seasons and embrace them. Embrace Autumn. Find the pleasures you can get from it. Find pleasure from the short days and the chilly weather. Pleasure might be ‘oh its dark outside, I’m going to go in, I’m going to get my favourite blanket out, I’m going to get my favourite slippers on, my favourite mug, and I’m going to have that special quality comfort moment for myself and I have that because it’s cold outside’. So I love Autumn because I can have that moment of comfort indoors as well. Lights and candles. Put the fire on, make a lovely cup of tea and cosy up under it. I’ve gone and bought one of those absolutely gorgeous blanket hoodies and my blanket hoodie matches my slippers, and I’ve bought also a big fluffy blanket that goes with it and I did this yesterday. I literally came home, and it was miserable outside, the rain was there, I’d been outside for some sunlight. I was like ‘Oh, I don’t want to spend any more time outside. It’s miserable’. And I literally put my fluffy slippers on, I got my fluffy blanket, I sat with my fluffy hoodie on, I put some candles on and I watched a film and it was lovely, absolutely lovely, gorgeous, comfy. I felt so snug, and that snugness made me feel really good, and that’s because I was embracing the season, embracing the moment, and embracing the new activities I can do because of it.
Now, 8WiseTM Way number six is something that you should do every day, but definitely more so if you experience low mood, and this is schedule in your self-care. I want you to schedule in your self-care every single day and do something completely selfish, something completely for you. It isn’t about anybody else. It might be that bubble bath, it might be getting a massage, it might be watching your favourite film. It might be binge watching a TV show you’ve wanted to watch for ages, it might be reading a book. It’s your choice. Whatever it is, find something that you are going to do that is just for you. I’m committing to a new self-care routine this week, trying something new. I’ve bought myself a Shiatsu massager. I got it from Amazon, but I’m sure you can get them everywhere else as well and it’s literally one of those that you sit on your shoulder and you put your arms through it so it’s kind of linked over you, and you can press all the buttons with your fingers and it just gets into all the knot because I find when my mood goes lower, that the tension starts to build in my arms and across my back and in my neck and that can cause me some headaches. So, I’ve got my green chair of tranquillity, which is a big green wing back chair, I have this in my spare room. My Shiatsu massager is going to now join the chair with a blanket that I also have in there. I’ve gone and bought myself a salt rock lamp so I’m going to sit in there with my Shiatsu massager with my feet up in my gorgeous green chair of tranquillity, and I’m going to use that moment to do some head space, and I’m going to do that for 30 minutes every single evening.
So, pick your thing of choice. Pick your thing you’re going to commit to, but the one thing you should commit to is yourself, your self-care. Being selfish enough to put yourself first every single day and look after yourself, especially, especially if you experience low mood at this time of the year.
Now, 8WiseTM Way number seven is all about sleep. It’s about making sure you get your sleep. Now we hear it all the time, try and get your eight hours of sleep but realistically everybody needs a different amount of sleep. Eight hours of sleep is a very generalized number so if you know you are the eight person, very 8WiseTM Way that isn’t it, to be an eight hour person, if you’re the eight hour person, try and get your eight hours. But ideally what we’re looking for is about between seven and nine hours. When you’re sleep deprived, you start to find it really harder to deal with daily stresses, which can then obviously trigger some mental health problems as well. So, with everything we’re trying to do in order to reduce the impact of anxiety and depression, or prevent ourselves from experiencing anxiety and depression, we want to reduce as much stress as we can and sleep helps us to do that. If you know you’re getting sleep deprived, try and implement a really good sleep routine and start to try and help yourself get a better pattern of sleep over these Winter months, and if you’re struggling with sleep I’d recommend trying to do some meditation, reading before bed’s really good, chamomile tea, calming things. Banning your blue screen, put the phone away, people put it away, put the iPad away. Put the laptop away, put the blue lights away. Don’t tell yourself you’re going to get those blue screen lights that’s going to make you do that. I did that, it helps with the blue light but it doesn’t stop you being stimulated by what you’re reading on your phone, what you’re reading on your iPads, what you’re still doing with regards to work on your laptop, Put the technology down, go back to basics. Use a colouring book and, as I said, do some meditation. Do some self-hypnosis. Read a good old fashioned book of something you’re not that interested in but it’s not a bad thing to go through, but you need to do things to try and help you get your good quality of sleep in.
8WiseTM Way number eight is about making plans with friends and family because what can happen, number one, it gets colder outside, it gets wetter outside, it gets darker outside, and all of a sudden we don’t want to go outside, which means we don’t necessarily want to go out to meet people. Even I did it this week. I was going to go and meet someone it was like ‘Oh, it’s raining out, I can’t be bothered, I do not want to go out and get my hair wet’ so I said no, but I need that time with those friends. I need that time with family members, so make your plans with friends and family. Social wellness is absolutely crucial in your overall wellbeing, and it’s really, really important when it comes to anxiety and depression, so a great way of tackling it is making sure you stay social and it’s about having connection with people because when we get a little bit of a low mood, we can become isolated. We can choose to not mix with people because we just don’t feel great and to counteract, you’ve got to get out there and do some fun things. So, get out there. We’ve got Halloween coming up, get out there and carve your pumpkin with your family, with your friends. Go out and have your pumpkin spice latte with a friend and catch up. Go out and choose an amazing outfit to wear for Halloween, for your Halloween party and go to that Halloween party as well. But make sure through the Winter months you are still spending quality time with friends, with family, and doing all of those things. Make a plan to do it. Have fun, have Frolics, create new memories. Make Winter a fun time for you.
So, we’ve got to remember, again, with 8WiseTM when it comes to S.A.D, we know it’s going to affect you. If it’s affecting your mood, it’s affecting your emotional wellness and it can affect your physical wellness as well because emotional and physical are connected, so the way to counteract that is take better care of your stress levels to help boost your emotional wellness, take better care of your body by eating healthy, getting your hydration in, looking after your sleep, and obviously getting some exercise in as well and getting out there in the sunlight and that is going to help with your physical wellness. Because it affects those two so dramatically, it can then have a knock-on effect on all of those other things, such as you get bored, you get tired, so your intellectual stimulation is decreased, so your intellectual wellness is decreased. You’re not doing the things that brought you fun, brought you frolics, enjoyed things so your purpose can start to change, so your identity can start to change. Your self-esteem can start to get impacted. It also means that because you’re not necessarily interacting with people as much, or going out as much, you’re not getting the contact you need with the environment that brings out the best in you. You’re not necessarily spending time with the people that bring out the best in you.
All of these things together can really have an impact on your overall life, and suddenly you’re miserable and you’re moody and you’re not having fun in work and fun becomes a bit harder and to make yourself feel better, you’re spending more money on takeaways for all of that comfort food or anything that’s going to make you feel a bit better.
So, use the 8WiseTM model to improve your overall wellness and wellbeing. Use those 8WiseTM Ways tips there to help you manage Seasonal Affective Disorder and make Winter a fun time, a time not to be feared. Make it prove to yourself that you have the ability to manage it, to control it, to cure it for yourself if you need to, and also to prevent it if you need to as well, which is what the whole purpose of 8WiseTM is, to provide you with a model that you can use for your recovery and you can use for prevention as well.
If you are like me and you do experience Seasonal Affective Disorder, then hopefully some of this information will help you understand it better and it will help you with some tools and some tips too.
If you have any questions or queries about this, please feel free to contact me directly. You can send me an email to email@example.com. Feel free to email me. If you want some more information, please head to my website www.8wise.co.uk and you will find lots of resources, lots of blogs, lots of things there that can help you out with regards to helping to manage your mental health and your psychological wellbeing.
Not forgetting the book, people. We’ve got the book out, so head out there. If you want to get yourself a hard copy of the book, you can get a hard copy, paperback copy, you can get your Kindle copy, you can get it from anywhere that sells books, all the big ones online, and I’ve mentioned them already. You can also get them directly from the website as well.
And it’s not the only book, you can get your journal, your planner, and all these other things and the exciting thing is I start recording the audio book in the next week. So, the audio book will be with you very, very, very soon. If you need an audio book rather than a hard book to read, then it will be coming to you soon, I’ve got your back, I’ve got you covered. You can have your audio book, hopefully by the end of this year.
I would love it if you want to check me out on Facebook, on LinkedIn, on Instagram as well. You can follow me anywhere, anywhere I’m pretty much in as 8WiseKim, or as 8WiseTherapy and on LinkedIn you can follow me directly at Kim Rutherford. It’d be great to chat with you. It’d be great to connect with you. It’d great to get your feedback on things. I love hearing people who use 8WiseTM and how it’s helped them and how it’s benefited them. So, if you are one of those people, please, please, please get in touch. Let me know. It means so much that you are finding ways that help you with your own mental health and your own psychological wellbeing as well.
As I say, I set this up. I created 8WiseTM to help as many people as possible because I didn’t like the fact that people were suffering and couldn’t necessarily get access to the healthcare, the psychological care that they might have needed and I wanted 8WiseTM to provide people with a tool that they could almost become their own psychotherapist if they needed to, or certainly their own wellness coach if they needed to. So, if you have liked this, please press that like button, please press that share button, please press that subscribe button. Please help us to get this message out there and let as many people around the world know that they are not having to struggle alone. There are tools, there are ways to manage how they think, how they feel, and have that better quality of life. There is a better way to have mental health and psychological wellbeing and 8WiseTM can really help you. So, if you don’t mind pressing all of those buttons to help get the message out there, I’d really appreciate it and feel free to put some comments below too on what you feel about this episode.
Thank you very much for joining me on Live The 8WiseTM Way podcast with me, Kim Rutherford, Psychotherapist, author and obviously podcast host as well and I look forward to chatting to you soon in our next episode. Until then, take care and bye for now.
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